Outboard well

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Skald
Inlägg: 7
Blev medlem: tis 17 okt 2017 18:22

Outboard well

Inlägg av Skald » tis 17 okt 2017 19:04

I'm going to buy an IF-boat and I really like their lines, but most of the boats have outboards on transom. What's so wrong with outboard well? All I've found so far is this thread: http://ifboat.se/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=181&p=732 but there's nothing really critical mentioned...
My biggest concern is boats controllability when reversing with outboard in the well - I'm very afraid of narrow passages in marinas :oops:
Can anyone share experiences considering the well? The boat I want to buy has remote on the cockpit side, so there's no need to open the lazarette to change gear. On the other side the motor is 8 hp and I'm not going to take it out every time I hoist sails...
Inboard is not an option as I'm not a mechanic at all and I don't want to get stuck somewhere with broken motor (and they are some 40 years old now). As for outboard - now I just take a spare 2 hp with me everytime I'm in sea :P

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maja
Moderator
Inlägg: 1992
Blev medlem: lör 19 aug 2006 08:56
Ort: Lund, Sweden

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av maja » tis 17 okt 2017 21:53

I think that a modern 4 stroke 8 Hp engine will be far too large to fit in the motor well.
Perhaps, do you have an old 2 stroke..?..
Marek, IF-båt SWE-829 "Ingela" från Lagunen i Malmö
Medlem i IF-båtförbundet sedan 1985
IF-båtägare sedan 1983

Skald
Inlägg: 7
Blev medlem: tis 17 okt 2017 18:22

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Skald » tis 17 okt 2017 22:38

The boat I want to buy really has quite old 8 hp 2 stroke installed in the well... And that's the point - I love how the boat looks like, but I wonder why do most of people move the motor to transom.

As for me - I have now smaller sailing boat with 3 hp outboard, but always take another spare 2 hp outboard just in case.

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maja
Moderator
Inlägg: 1992
Blev medlem: lör 19 aug 2006 08:56
Ort: Lund, Sweden

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av maja » tor 19 okt 2017 09:33

It was initially intended by the designer of the IF-boat that there should be brought an outboatd motor which was normally stored in the aft locker and when the wind failed, the outside board cover hatch of the well was removed and the motor was inserted in the well. As only inteded to be used in no or weak wind conditions, a small motor (2-4 hp) would be sufficient and, the weight of which would not be a problem to handle.

So it was not intended to keep the motor in the well permanently. If so, there is to be arranged with someting to prevent water splashing into the aft locker when sailing closed hauled on starboard. It may be done by a hose of a wheelbarrow tire placed in the well around the motor rig and pumped with air.

A disadvantage of motoring with an engine in the well is that the hatch of the aft locker has to be kept open when motoring, as, otherwise, the motor wil be choked by its own exhaust. Still another disadvantage of permanent mounting in the well is that the sailing performance will suffer considerably.
Marek, IF-båt SWE-829 "Ingela" från Lagunen i Malmö
Medlem i IF-båtförbundet sedan 1985
IF-båtägare sedan 1983

Skald
Inlägg: 7
Blev medlem: tis 17 okt 2017 18:22

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Skald » tor 19 okt 2017 09:47

maja, thank you very much. Your replies are very useful and detailed as usual!

Nils D
Inlägg: 99
Blev medlem: mån 04 jun 2007 19:21
Ort: Linköping/Arkösund

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Nils D » tor 19 okt 2017 14:17

Skald skrev:
tis 17 okt 2017 19:04
My biggest concern is boats controllability when reversing with outboard in the well - I'm very afraid of narrow passages in marinas :oops:
There are in my opinion two different aspects of controllability in situations like these. One is reversability to reduce speed, the other is maneuverability, espcially the ability to make sharp turns.

In my experience, the for the first the most important thing is to have the right propeller. Most small outboard engines have propellers that are optimized for being used on a small boat and giving a speed of around 10 knots or so, and further to give more thrust in the forward than reverse direction. There are some small outboard engines that can be devlivered optimized for use on a small sailboat, with a propeller that is gives more power at slow speeds, and which works well also in reverse. I have one such enginge (Mercury Sail), and the difference in this aspect compared to my previous "standard" engine of the same type (a modern four stroke engine) was remarkable. For this I see no principled reason why the placement of the engine (well or transom) would make any large difference. But the few models of enginges for sailboats on the marked here in Sweden are all too large to be used in the well. But it might be possible to switch to such a propeller on an engine small enough to fit in the well.

When it comes to maneuverability, I prefer the transom mount, since this makes it possible to use the engine to steer the boat, which makes it possible to make much more narrow turns than when using the rudder, especially at slow speeds.

I do agree that the boat looks much better when the engine is out of sight, but the other advantages of having it on the transom made me to bite the bullet and go for that solution. I have contemplated fitting an electric inboard engine instead, but the cost for this is still too high for my budget.
Nils D SWE-3008

Skald
Inlägg: 7
Blev medlem: tis 17 okt 2017 18:22

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Skald » tor 19 okt 2017 18:44

Nils D skrev:
tor 19 okt 2017 14:17
In my experience, the for the first the most important thing is to have the right propeller.
That's very good idea! I know a lot of people are seeking "faster" propeller, but as speed while motoring is not very important for me I just skipped such discussions. Never thought about more power at lower speed, but I'll look into it...
Nils D skrev:
tor 19 okt 2017 14:17
I do agree that the boat looks much better when the engine is out of sight, but the other advantages of having it on the transom made me to bite the bullet and go for that solution. I have contemplated fitting an electric inboard engine instead, but the cost for this is still too high for my budget.
Do you have a kind of remote control in the cockpit or do you have to lean overboard to change gear, for example? Isn't it annoying?

Nils D
Inlägg: 99
Blev medlem: mån 04 jun 2007 19:21
Ort: Linköping/Arkösund

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Nils D » fre 20 okt 2017 09:36

Skald skrev:
tor 19 okt 2017 18:44
Do you have a kind of remote control in the cockpit or do you have to lean overboard to change gear, for example? Isn't it annoying?
I do not have a remote control. You are of course correct that a remote control would probably make things easier in some situations, and I have read about a few IF boats equipped with that, but I have never found it annoying to change gear as it is now, even when being out alone with the boat. On my current engine the gear shift is not on the side as on most small outboards, but in the front which makes it easier to reach. If the engine has the gear shift on the side, it is important to have the engine mount on the side that makes it less cumbersome to reach the controls from the cockpit, e.g. with an engine with the controls on the starboard side of the engine, it should perferably be mounted on the aft side of the boat.

What I instead found a bit difficult with the most common engine mount design was the lowering of the engine into the water when prepring to return to the harbour, since this reqired me to get out of the cockpit and stand on the deck to release the lock that kept the engine out of the water during sailing. And especially doing this when being out alone was sometimes not only annoying but probably rather unsafe, especially in strong winds and big waves. I therefore changed the engine mount to another design, where I can get it in and out of the water without leaving the cockpit. This was not xx, but for me worth every penny I spent. I wrote a small piece on this in our magazine Medvind number 2, 2016.
http://www.ifboat.se/medvind?view=simpl ... nager&id=2
If you are interested in this but find it difficult to read it using Google Translate or any other translation', please send me a personal message with your email address and I'll send you a translation of it.
Nils D SWE-3008

Skald
Inlägg: 7
Blev medlem: tis 17 okt 2017 18:22

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Skald » fre 20 okt 2017 15:57

Nils D skrev:
fre 20 okt 2017 09:36
If you are interested in this but find it difficult to read it using Google Translate or any other translation', please send me a personal message with your email address and I'll send you a translation of it.
Thank you very much, there's no need in translation - the article is absolutely clear and Google Translate is good. I've seen such mount on boats, but never used them.

Captain_frog
Inlägg: 14
Blev medlem: sön 14 sep 2014 12:37

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Captain_frog » tor 26 okt 2017 21:50

Hello Skald
I have an IF boat (1973) which I bought with a motor already in well (Mercury Sail Pro 6 HP 4 stroke with large Mickey Mouse propeller and remote control). I built a dual trap door to cover the opening. It can be opened from the motor compartment so I am able to remove the motor if I have to without having to get the boot out of the water. The exhaust gas and the cooling water are directed outside by two opening on the transom (use to be the holes for the motor ladder) and via plastic tubes.

Advantages:
-The motor runs quietly, there is no need to keep the motor compartment open (there is a small air inlet on top of deck).
-The starting procedure is easy, as I do not have to leave the cockpit (very secure in big swell).
-The propeller stays in water even in heavy see.
-The trap door stops any water intrusion inside the motor compartment, even in heavy weather or sailing closed hauled on starboard
-Repair and service are easily made from inside the boat.
-The boat looks much better as the engine is out of sight

Disadvantages:
-The boat is slower in sailing mode (due to the drag of propeller) 1/2 a knot maybe more.
-No possibility to turn the motor in difficult reverse manoeuvre (as a matter of fact I try to avoid any critical reverse manoeuvre as it is quite unpredictable to know how the boat is going to behave)
I hope this will help

Captain Frog

Skald
Inlägg: 7
Blev medlem: tis 17 okt 2017 18:22

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Skald » lör 28 okt 2017 12:39

Captain Frog, thank you! Yes, this helps a lot. I'm not going to race, so I'm ready to sacrifice half a knot of speed (in fact, I even don't take the outboard on my current boat out of water, though it is on transom). The main reason (at least now) I want IF is that I need a seaworthy, reliable and "forgiving" boat, because my current with 420 kg displacement makes sailing in more then 7 m/s wind a bit thrilling.
So far I've got from the thread that there are no critical disadvantages in having outboard in the well if I'm not going to race. And anyway I can move the motor to transom later if I feel it necessary :)

Captain_frog
Inlägg: 14
Blev medlem: sön 14 sep 2014 12:37

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Captain_frog » lör 28 okt 2017 14:21

Hello Skald
You are welcome.
If you look for my thread "Motor angle in well" you will see some pictures of the exhaust fitting and the cooling water outlet.
I you are interested, I might be able to send some picture of the dual door trap when my boat is out of water.

To make it, I took the original cover for the well opening, made a cut out in it and fixed two stainless steel half door on hinges. I glued the assembly in place with some rubber sealing paste. This allowed me not to make any holes in the hull. The doors are attached to 2 stainless steel chains and ropes running inside the well, so they can be opened/closed from the motor compartment.
The 2 half cut-out openings in the door are about 2 cm larger than the place needed for the motor axle to avoid any metal to metal contact. I fitted the inside of the doors with 5 mm rubber sheets that cover the space between the doors and the motor axle.
I must say that it took a lot of try an error to get the right design. But it was worth it. I now can take the motor out of the well in a matter of minutes (i.e. for Regatta or repair)

Skald
Inlägg: 7
Blev medlem: tis 17 okt 2017 18:22

Re: Outboard well

Inlägg av Skald » tor 02 nov 2017 22:26

Captain_frog, sorry for late reply - had no time for forum recently...
Captain_frog skrev:
lör 28 okt 2017 14:21
If you look for my thread "Motor angle in well" you will see some pictures of the exhaust fitting and the cooling water outlet.
I you are interested, I might be able to send some picture of the dual door trap when my boat is out of water.
The thread you mentioned I remember very well, saved all the photos and info from it. As for doors' photos - it will be great if you post them and I think it will be interesting not only for me (though I don't have an IF yet :oops: ). Thanks in advance. It's a long time till spring, good to collect ideas :)

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